173: "But the unicorn in me says, why not?" Wendy Baird Packard helps transitioning service members find purpose and passion through career transitions

Jen Amos 0:01

All right, and today we have Wendy Baird Packard with us, Wendy, Welcome to Season Seven of holding down the fort by us bet wealth and the rosy networks. So happy to have you on today.

Speaker 1 0:12

Thank you. Hello, Jen. I'm excited to be here. We've had a good visit prior to this. So I'm excited to jump in and visit with you today.

Jen Amos 0:19

Yeah, yeah, I gotta I gotta commend you. And we were talking offline. You did your research and to our company, my company us about wealth. And you know, as a as an interview style podcast or my headspace is always like making it about the other person. So when someone kind of turns the tables around, and like, looks into me, it's like, Oh, that is that is so thoughtful. So I mean, I think this ties in with, like what you do as a career counselor, which we'll get to later, but I just wanted to let you know that I appreciated you doing that prior research before, you know, before we spoke for the first time.

Speaker 1 0:50

Absolutely. Thank you. And you're welcome. It's well, and we will talk about that as part of your career search. Research is really important. So you know where to start kind of thing. But absolutely,

Jen Amos 1:00

yeah. Well, before we get into that, I do have some icebreaker questions. And I'd love you. I'd love for you to pick a number between one and five. And I'm going to pull out a question I know you have no I don't even know what question I'm gonna pull up. So a number between one and five and then we'll go from there. All right,

Unknown Speaker 1:16

let's go with five,

Jen Amos 1:17

five. Okay, we'll go with this one. I'm like, You're gonna laugh at this. This is already know that I already know the answer to this. Are you a cat or a dog person? Oh, and explain.

Speaker 1 1:29

That's an easy one. Yeah, that's a good ingenue. Absolutely. Notice, as we've already talked about, and normally behind me, if you can see, this is a dog sitting behind me. So totally dog person had a dog my whole entire life. It was a very short period of time where there wasn't a dog in my household. And I was like, oh, Never again, never I will always have a dog in the household. But you know what, I wouldn't mind having a cat too. But my child is allergic to them. So someday in retirement, I think we'll have a barn and we'll have a barn cat probably. That Yeah. Totally dog a dog person. Although I

Jen Amos 2:05

love it. Yeah, I I'm a little conflicted because I do have I have a dog and a cat. I did have my dog first. The cat was kind of on accident. Long story short, it was, we felt this cat was following us around. Actually, we were staying at an Airbnb on a farm. And this cat, just the farm cat kept following us around. And in the end, the landlords were like, We don't want to keep the cat like, No, we already we already taught it to you know, fend for itself and hunt mice and all that. And do you want it and we took it. So we've had this cat for two years. Now I gotta tell you like having a dog for like six years. And I grew up with a dog as well. I like this is my first experience with a cat. And I'll tell you there's a lot of growing pains and like with a cat. Absolutely. I will say though like definitely the benefits of having a cat is like your you have your in house pest control. Like I never worry about like cockroaches or mice or anything because the cat is really good at finding them. I mean, the one thing i i am going to say I have like a love hate relationship with this with the cat. But like on occasion. I mean, this hasn't happened lately, because we have a housekeeper now. But like, on occasion, like back then I would see a cockroach just face up, like just upside down. And that's what my cat would do. My cat would just play around with these cockroaches, flip them and then get bored and walk away. So it freaks me out. When I see them at the same time. I'm happy that I can vacuum them a lot easier. Because yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how I feel about cats. But I'm I guess I'm a both if you ask if you ask me.

Speaker 1 3:38

Yeah, we grew up with cats and cats would always bring us home things. You know, and I think every cat owner has had this experience where they like, bring you this prize. Like here's a dead lizard and you're like, Oh, thank you. Yeah,

Jen Amos 3:51

that that I am glad my cat doesn't do that. Because I've heard I've heard cat owners that they they'll bring home dead things and or it's still alive. Like they're playing with a mouse outside. It's like here and then it just runs in the house. Like I've heard those stories. And I'm like, I'm so glad my cat is so stoic about those things. Like I know that I know that we'll find dead stuff outside in the front yard. But I'm glad he kept it out there. So anyway, yes, dogs are great. Like dogs are great, great for protection. They you know, they bark let you know if someone unfamiliar is outside. And you know, I love dogs for their loyalty. And they're just such people pleasers.

Speaker 1 4:27

We're so excited. I mean, in and out five minutes in between. They're so excited to see you like, you know, it's just constant instant love. And so yeah, just that I like to walk and so I've always liked to walk with a dog. Just for the safety, just the energy. I just, you know, I really love it. Oh yeah, we used to live in Colorado and I was very new to the mountain setting. And I took one of the dogs I have now. And we just we drove up the mountain and I found a dirt road and we just walked through the woods in the mountain on dirt road. And he got very, very Nervous fare very quickly. And I was like, What is going on? What is it didn't even think didn't even think, went back down the mountain went home, told my husband, he said, What were you thinking? And I'm like, I just was walking out. He's like, You have meat on a leash out in the middle of the woods. And then the week after, there was mountain lion mountain lion sightings in that area, and that dog knew it. And but man, I was just very lucky to be walk with my dog through the mountains, you know?

Jen Amos 5:28

Yeah, you're like, he's like, mom, like, I'm just like, bait out here right now. Right?

Speaker 1 5:32

He was totally freaking out. He's like, this is not a good plan. I'm like, alright, well go back, you know, well, thank

Jen Amos 5:36

God that your dog did not get eaten and safely. And now we know. Yeah, well, yeah. When do you thank you for opening up with that icebreaker question. I feel like nowadays for this season, it's just a great way to open up and you know, just like flex our muscles here, our vocal muscles and get into it. And before we actually get into it. So with that being said, I'm really excited to chat with you. Because one thing I think is unique about your story is that you used to work with the Transition Assistance Program, by the departments, or let me say this correctly by the Department of Labor. And, you know, a lot of the work that my husband and I do does focus on military retirees like transitioning service members. And I gotta say, the number one thing we often hear is that, you know, and this is just, this is what they're saying, I'm not saying this. I'm just saying this on behalf of people who've said this. So please know. Yeah, is that yeah, I'm just quoting other people. But other people have told me because I personally haven't been through it myself. So just to protect myself here, I have often heard or we have often heard that tap wasn't enough for them for their transition. And so it's very, I'm very fascinated to have this conversation with you. For start, just start us off, because you actually worked with tap. So. So tell us about what that experience was like for you? Because I know, I know that you you've already moved on from working there.

Speaker 1 6:58

Yeah, so what I can tell you about tap or the Transition Assistance Program is it's it's always evolving, they're always trying to make it better. But in order to be 100%, every person that's transitioning, transitioning out of the military is very, very difficult. Everybody is very unique in their journey, and what they're going to do, and really unique in their mindset. So where is their head getting out. And that is a huge part of that program. So how they sit in that program and think about that program is in fact, what they're going to think about that program. So that being said, I also will say 100%, it had to do with the effectiveness of the instructor. So if the instructor was engaged in every participants journey, which it was possible to do, I had classes of five people at classes of 50 people. And you had when I was teaching, it was three days long. And it was all career oriented. In those three days, you had a very structured curriculum to go by, but you had flexibility to apply it to the circumstance of your class or to an individual. So the destructor, that stood there just went through the book, you're right, that's probably not the most effective use of that program, the instructor that got to know what every need of their student was, and then try to make it applicable to that student, those people got a lot more out of it than just sitting through the class. So it had a lot to do with, who was instructing and how they're structured, which is a secondary part of my own company, which how you present information is how it's received. And if you just present information, like in these classes, a lot of times it wasn't received, because they didn't want to be there. They were, you know, their headspace is they've got to move. They don't know what's happening. Maybe they're leaving because of a medical transition. Maybe it's an article like they were in trouble. So there might be some litigation involved. Maybe they're leaving because their spouse left them, you know, their headspace in that environment was 100%. somewhere else. Yeah. So the effectiveness of the program lies solely on the effectiveness of the person that's presenting the program to them, and how interested they are in each individual. So I made it a point we went around, I wanted to talk to every single person and find out what their plan was. And I will tell you, about 80% of the time, the plan from the beginning of the class to the plan at the end of the class was very, very different. So we would work through kind of the logistics of the plan that they thought they wanted. So a great example and I would get this a lot is if I had somebody that was in artillery or infantry or in police protection in the military, they naturally want to transition out into something like a police officer firefighter, something like that. And in their headspace, they're like, I'm just gonna go out and nobody's gonna want to hire me. I'm a military person. I've got tons of experience, and I'm going to walk right into these agencies. And the fact and reality was that wasn't the case. If there are some of those agencies required a school that you had to go six, eight months for some of those agencies required a college education or at least an Associate's degree. And then I would always say, Great, we can work through that, and let's get a plan for that. But what if you're unable to do that? What if God forbid, you go home and you trip in the airport and blow out your knee, you can no longer be a policeman, what's your next plan? So, again, those classes are very effective if they're applied correctly, with getting the attendees to really think about a, b, and c, and not just shoving a lot of information down their throat, because I would see their faces about day two, when we got into resumes. And you can write three or four different types of resumes, they were just like, overwhelmed, they're like, I can't do it, I don't know what I'm doing. So a lot of times, again, depending on the instructor, I would write the resumes for them the first time I'd go home at night, and I type up all their resumes and go, Look, this is what it's going to look like. And this is how we're going to adjust it, this is how we're going to fix it. And we got a lot of great feedback from those. I mean, there were very few people, I feel that left my class and many of my co instructors were very good as well, where they didn't have a good plan. But the key to this class also is it's a beginning, they have to use the resources that are provided for them. So reaching out to agencies like yours, or reaching out to Hiring Our Heroes or the US Oh, there are so many agencies that will continue to walk with them. It's really just that taps class is really just a, Hey, this is the beginning. And here's a lot of information. Now you're gonna have to follow up, you're gonna have to move on with it. So I think it's a great program, if it's applied correctly.

Jen Amos: 11:49

Yeah, absolutely. And I was looking at the top website, and one of the things that they offer under it is the employment status, right? Employment fundamentals of career transition. So EFC T is one of the programs, and it specifically says it's a one day foundational workshop that introduces the essential tools and fundamentals, you need to evaluate like post separation, career options, search for employment, etc, etc. But the key is that what what I'm hearing from you is that this is it's an introduction, you know, it's, it's kind of, it's meant to introduce, it's meant to give an overview, and, and it's up to the service member to, you know, look into other resources to dive in deeper, but, you know, to expect to expect tap to, you know, give you everything to change your life and like one to three days. Sounds pretty unrealistic. And again, I do appreciate you speaking, even from their perspective, like what you got from the service members, or transitioning service members is that they were preoccupied, a lot of them are preoccupied preoccupied to even pay attention. And so I really love how you have this personal, you have this personal sense of responsibility to be the best instructor you could to meet them where they're at, and, you know, help transform them in in those few in those one to three days, even if it's just enough for them to realize that their original plan is probably not going to be the plan that they walk out with.

: 13:11

Right? Yeah. And now they've changed the program. So my, when I was teaching, the program was three days just in employment. And now like you said, they've taken that down to one day, and I can't wrap my head around how they could get, I don't even know how they can get the curriculum in. I do know that they were trying to separate them into then they could go further with an educational path or a career path. And then there was maybe more resources and information. But yeah, it's a tough one. Well, you

Jen Amos: 13:39

know, like you said, and I'm, you know, I'm hearing this for the first time really, it's like it is ever evolving, I did see that they do offer like elearning now for people who cannot make it in person. So it sounds like it's like a self guided transition Assistant Program and all that. Either way, though, it is I do, like, recognizing the fact that, you know, it's all about, like, how the instructor how invested the instructor is. And I also think it's it's the service member being in the right headspace to receive that information. And, you know, I remember my, my husband would mention this, or he, you know, he'd often talk about this in his transition and what he's heard from other people, it's like, a lot of transitioning, service members are just happy to be in a room of AC, when they

Unknown Speaker: 14:24

can, I can breathe for a minute.

Jen Amos: 14:26

Yeah. And I'm just like, Okay, well, that's, that's okay. That's a valid point. You know, it is, you know, just whether I get it AC is great, especially in the summer now at the time of this recording. And so yeah, it is very interesting to, you know, hear your firsthand experience with it. And, you know, to hear how it was incredibly important to you to be invested in, you know, your students at that time. I know for you also, this was you also had a personal experience with military transition, and that was with your husband. So can you tell us a little bit about that and how that kind of ties into your story here.

: 15:00

Absolutely, yes, that is probably why we're so passionate about reaching my students where they're at. So my husband was in the Navy in the late 90s. And did four years active and four years reserved. And I met him kind of in the middle of that, and I didn't know anything about military service. And things get serious. And I said, you know, I'm not going to raise my children in uniform, you're going to do this, and we're gonna get married. I'm not raising my kids in the military. I'm not traveling all over the place. I'm just doing this. So what would you get out and he did. And so he did four years in the reserve as well. Total, he did about 10 years out of active duty. Were at the end of that 10 years, he reenlisted in the army. But during that 10 years, what he did in taps wasn't a thing in the 90s not really gave them kind of a crash course and said, Hey, you should be able to get a job go. And my husband came out got a two year degree in computer engineering, and was working through that whole period of time, worked for Loomis Fargo as an armored truck guard worked as a cable manager where he supervised 2030 cable guys who did cable and worked consistently hard, and we couldn't make ends meet. We couldn't pay the bills. We couldn't pay the medical bills. We couldn't pay anything. I mean, we were if we could have been bankrupt, we should have been bankrupt. I mean, it was very difficult. It was in the period of time where housing lost all its value. 2008 2009. Yeah. And so we couldn't even give our house back. They were like, no, we'll just keep adding on to your mortgage. You don't We don't want it back, because they're so our closed. And so we struggled, even though he worked consistently when I had my son, because we were not in the military, there was an extensive amount of bills with that, that we were trying to cover in this. And he worked hard. And he had a good military record. And he did everything right. And he still we didn't find a job that paid the money that paid the benefits. And he was unhappy with it. And I watched him struggle to just be a civilian, for that nine or 10 years where he just, it just was very difficult to transition back into. And he's, again, as I mentioned, we are back in the army at the end of 10 years, I went, Okay, I give whatever you want to do. And he's like, I liked the military. Let's go back. And we're back. And we've been back for 13 years. But that period of time, I watched such an emotional struggle for him, that when I got in front of service members, I was able to tell that story and say, Look, I know exactly where you're coming from. And I know exactly where you're going, because I've lived it. And that story alone usually got their attention because he had a plan. But the plan just didn't work the way we thought we didn't know the medical bills were going to be so excessive, and we didn't understand that medical insurance coming out of your paycheck in the civilian world took a large portion of it, we were talking four or $500 each paycheck was coming out for our medical insurance, and we were still paying 20% of the medical bills. So that was a lot and so very, very difficult. So yes, that whole life story there transitioned right back into that taps, which is probably where I could look at them and go, you know, you think it's gonna go this way. But it just may not, it just may not. And you have to pivot and have a plan A, B, and C. So when I talk to people now in career counseling, we always have that A, B, and C, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? If but yeah, that, you know, I have a spiritual person. And whatever everyone's belief is mine is happens to be in God. And I just feel like that whole life period of time prepared me to stand in front of 1000s and 1000s, of 1000s, of transitioning service members and go look, you got to pay attention to me, because I know exactly what can happen. And we can make it better. And we can fix it. And I can help you if you just plug in. And so that was really, really useful and really helpful. And I think it's what connected me to those service members because I knew what it was like, if you didn't do it, right. Yeah.

Jen Amos: 19:12

Well, I commend you for I commend your husband and you because I know it was a family decision to go back to the military. And I understand that he essentially had to start from the beginning, correct. He did

: 19:25

when He went back to so he was 40. When he went back in our child was 910. And he went to the recruiter and this is, you know, this is after 911. We're we're actively in war and locked into the army recruiter into the Navy recruiter and said, You know, I made a mistake like nine or 10 years ago. I'd like to come back and they Laughter They went yeah, thanks, but you're old and no, you just the first time we don't really need you but right across the street. There's an army recruiter, and you got a clearance and It's a it's a ground war. So they might take it. And so the army recruiter was like, absolutely. We will take you, you will get no signing bonus. And you will start back down at A E two. And he was probably at a six by when he left the Navy, something along that line. They said, you're 40. So come on, you get absolutely nothing but glad to have ya.

Jen Amos: 20:24

We'll take anyone.

: 20:27

Yeah, whatever. That's that's free medical sort of. Okay, we got Yeah. So that was kind of where he went. And he did. He went to boot camp at 40. Everybody thought he was a drill sergeant.

Unknown Speaker: 20:37

Good imagine, literally

: 20:39

on the bus from Maps. And people are like, drill sergeant, sir, what do you do in here? And he's like, No, I'm with you guys. I'm with you. It's I'm right next to you. So it was to our benefit that he had all those years in service, those first couple of promotions came rather quickly, because it wasn't so much time in service. And then once we got to probably a five we had to wait for time and service there at that point. But yeah, starting over at 40 was a really interesting learning experience for us as well. Yeah. Because everybody, so we went in our first duty station was Fort Carson, and that was junior enlisted housing. And so everybody had toddlers, and they were 25. And their 10 year old, and I'm in my mid 40s.

Jen Amos: 21:29

Yes, okay, coffee.

: 21:32

We would like to beer pong. I'm like, sorry, no, you know, I don't know. Sorry. Yeah. So

Jen Amos: 21:39

that must have been such a humbling experience. And also, I find that inspiring because, you know, I, my former co hosts shout out to Jenny Lynn like she's talking about, she talked about how her her her and her husband or her husband joined the military like a little later. But for them, it was like mid, like almost almost before they were 30. Like, I think he joined when he was like 27 years old. And for them that felt late. And so to hear your family's like, Hey, if you're not 40, like I guess you're still pretty young.

: 22:07

Yeah, it was pretty late the game it was, again, such a mission field for me, because yeah, our marriage became an example, for military, young military couples that maybe were just in it for the first time just married new baby struggling. And so we could really come alongside them and mentor and help and just be a part of it's just kind of cool that we did come in at that point. And as on the way to maps, my husband sat next to a young man on the bus. And he was 18. And it's signed up for the Navy, which is where my husband started. And he literally was crying on the bus this kid like, what did I do? Oh, my gosh, where am I going with? Like, what was I thinking for years of my life, I've just given to someone else. And my husband was able to talk to him for several hours on the bus and calm him down and tell him it's gonna be okay. And AVS, good and this is what you want to do. And so almost from day one, we've been in that really cool mission mentoring space for the younger folks. So we still still do a lot of that today, my husband was just talking about, he just promoted into a different position. And he's like, but I am struggling because I don't want to leave, he calls him my kids. Because they are, they could be like, I just don't want to be my kids. I feel like there's so much we need to do and this and that. And so it's still very much a part of us to mentor the younger servicemembers.

Jen Amos: 23:29

Yeah, I love that. I love that sense of purpose. And you know, to be able to do that, and, you know, obviously, as a career counselor, today, you get to, you get you get to know firsthand, intimately, you know, how difficult this is, and, but also, like, do it with joy, because like you can understand where they're coming from. So I want to go ahead and talk about that now. Because, you know, in addition to your background and doing tap, and then also, you know, with your husband's military service, you know, I know that a lot of your experience inspires the work that you do. So give us a quick snapshot of what it looks like to be to do with the work that you do at Wendy Baird Packard.

: 24:09

It's picking up with Wendy. So my my business is two pillars. One is the career counseling and development and the second is everyday public speaking assistance. So we'll talk about the career counseling, career counseling for me, there's a lot involved in that. Yes, I take all that experience from the years that I worked in tap. And that whole time I'm going to job fairs, I'm talking to recruiters. I'm talking to anybody who's hiring I'm, you know, I'm really diving in to see how they're looking for great candidates and I transitioned from that into Workforce Solutions. When I moved. I was with a contractor that was in Hawaii and then we moved as a military family. And the contract wasn't there. So I spent several months where I flew all around the country and did the classes, but I didn't particularly like like to fly. And I was able to find a job in similar situation with a workforce department where I worked with military spouses then became the department manager, and then eventually went and worked on their board their development board. So I got to see on that side, when I worked with workforce, I started to work more with the employers. So what were they looking for? What was their biggest problem? And so many times it was a communication issue, which is why I developed the second half of my company, which is how do you talk to people? How is it retained? And how do you get the best results from your communication? So everyday public speakers are people that are managers, volunteer coordinators, leaders in volunteer, say, you're the leader of your kids, band boosters, or something like that? And how do you effectively communicate to get what you need and, and give information so it's retained. So all of that kind of feeds into the career development because I was able to work on the employee side when I was working through tabs, and then a little bit with workforce. And then I got to see the employer side, when I worked further up with workforce development on what their expectations were for employers, and what I find fascinating about working on both of those ends. And I really love that because I can speak from both sides. What I find fascinating is this huge gap in the middle, where employers are like, I can't find good employees, I can't keep them. And employees are like, I don't know, I sent my resume and I didn't hear anything. And I just got ghosted, and nobody talked to me. And there's this, this gap there. That's, gosh, it's just still a puzzle to me and how we fix it. But I work really hard to do that to, to get people to communicate better. So there isn't that gap. But meeting people where they're at. And when I started career coaching, I didn't realize I was going to have to do a little bit of life coaching, which you have to because when somebody's like, Well, I had this job for three weeks, and then I left and then I had this job for four weeks. And then I left and I had this job for five weeks. And I left I just, well, why is that? Let's, you got to take some ownership and responsibility. So let's see what's happening. And then we can assess kind of, well, I don't like when people do this, or I don't, you know, then we have to kind of dig into who you are and what you are and what you really like. And then that leads us to kind of what we talked about, what is your dream job? And how do we get close to that. And that's where the realistic unicorn comes in. I believe anybody can have the dream job they want. Realistically, if you're in your 50s, and we talked about this example, if you're in your 50s, and you want to be a professional basketball player, that's probably that's the realistic side. But the unicorn in me says, why not? Why can't you work in the basketball field, there's got to be if you're an accountant, let's look at these professional basketball teams and see if you can be an accountant there. Let's work in one of these big arenas where the basketball team plays, let's look at some really diverse jobs that you might not even think are out there, like equipment manager or bus driver or something like that, why? Why can't you still have something in the field you want? And so that really gets into that kind of the life coaching, what do you want? And then I have to help people get over the fear of success. Because people really, they really do. I see a lot of times people we get very close and always gets harder before it gets easier in a job search. We always kind of have to wait it out. And they're like, oh, I'll just go back to what I was doing. I'm like, Yeah, but you want it with this really cool, big career. And we can do it. It's just going to take some work and some time, but they're like, oh, no, I'll just go back and do this. And that is a fear of success. It's not a fear of failure. So we worked through that as a career coach, I kind of worked through that as well.

Jen Amos: 28:53

Yeah, I think that is very important to work through that fear of success. I think we all we all experienced that to a certain extent, because it means that we're stepping out of our comfort zone, we're stepping into the unknown. And like, like you're mentioning here, sometimes it's just easier to fall back to what's familiar, may not it may not make you happy, it may not make you feel purposeful, however, it's familiar. And so I really like how you say like, Hey, you know, you were out of the military, like you can now really dream about who you want to be when you grow up. You're telling me what your dream is. Now let's make that happen. And more importantly, let's let's lean into it, and let's find a way to sustain it. And tell yourself that you do deserve this, like you do deserve to have like a different life, you know, a different identity that is not tied to your military service. So I think that is you know, I think that's a wonderful thing to work through because I feel like that is like the little secret that I feel like a lot of us have is that fear of success. It's like I want this I want that but when it comes to the action, I think it is very easy for us to to self sabotage and think and think to ourselves, you know what, no, I'm just gonna go back to what familiar?

: 29:58

Yeah, absolutely. I see it. My, my prize client, I shouldn't tell people this, but my, one of my prize clients is my child, my own child. And as a career coach, and I've been doing it for, I've had my company for just a year. But I've been doing this I realized now for about a decade, where I've been coaching people and working through the military spouses and helping people and volunteering as a career counselor and doing it for a long time. And so when you have a child that's coming up through college, and he's trying to decide what he wants to do, so And here's where this comes from, actually talking about a little bit of life coaching. So I had a mom that grew up in that very practical age, you know, and you you grew up and you got married, and you got a job, and you stayed at that job for 30 years, and you got a pension and you retired. And that's just what you did. And and I'm, you know, born in the 60s, and we started to move out of that in the 70s in the 80s. And we were way out of that now, there isn't a big pension plan thing there isn't. People stay in their careers an average of three to five years, job hopping is fairly common. But it was very difficult for my mom to wrap her head around doing something out of the box. And so it was very, I was always this again, this unicorn why like, oh, that's I want to be an actress or no, let's do this, or No, I want to do that. And she's like, get a practical job, you know, things like that. And so I was gonna raise my child very differently. And that's how I approached my business as well. He, from a very young age wanted to be a NASCAR driver. I said, All right, we're in the military a little hard to build a career doing that we move a lot. So racing. Everywhere he went, he raced something, a car of some sort, or go karts or something we we figured it out. When he got time to go to college, he was recruited by a tech school to come out and learn engine building. But we looked at another college in North Carolina that had a very big engineering program that works closely with NASCAR. And so we went to that college or he's still attending, actually, that college. And through that, he received an internship with a NASCAR team. And through that, that was last year through that he now has a paid position with an XFINITY NASCAR team. So he is living the dream of working. In fact, he flew Yeah, he flew out today, to be with his team in Michigan. So he flies every weekend to work with his NASCAR team and be at the race. And it took us a hot minute when he got this job. We're so grateful for it. But it is weird when you reach the success that you're looking for. And we were both like, how did this happen? But we've been working for it for years. And, and he told me the other day goes, I know you don't like me to say this, but I feel like it's normal now. And I'm like, normal is good. You know, you're working with our team. And if he becomes a driver, great Is that realistic unicorn, he may never drive a NASCAR. But he's sitting in the middle of the NASCAR jobs right now. And he's got unlimited possibilities. So I, I, you know, I just feel like I've lost track of the question. But, yeah, I feel like that that you can be successful. Just once you get there that that little trepidation like, Whoa, I made it. Yeah.

Jen Amos: 33:16

You know that, that reminds me of a famous quote, that I don't know who said it, but it went something like, aim for the moon. Because even if you miss you'll land in the stars. And the way that this I can I relate this to you know, your son's story is that, you know, he may not be a NASCAR driver, but he works for NASCAR. And you know, how impressive is I mean, close enough? Right.

: 33:40

Time to you know what, to develop whatever he wants, he might end up driving? I don't know. It's on him now. But yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jen Amos: 33:47

And, and also, like, you're talking about what we were talking about earlier with the transition Assistant Program, when you were working with transitioning service members there. You know, you really helped people realize that maybe that first plan they came walking in is not going to be the plan that they actually want to implement coming out. And so in a way you were hope you're able to help your son create, you know, have a realistic dream about working for NASCAR. And, you know, I if I was in his shoes, I'd be like, Hey, this is great. Like I yes, if I if he was so fixated on wanting to be a driver, he may not he may have never worked at NASCAR, but because, but now he was able to work close to it, you know, get to that. And it sounds like it's very much a gratifying career and the fact that he's so young, you know, he has so many years ahead of him that who knows, like he has the rest of his life to find out if he could be a driver right now.

: 34:33

And he's got the plan B went to college, he'll be a mechanical engineer. That's the plan B, you know, so there's, there's always that multi level plan when I work with career counseling that we need to plan B.

Jen Amos: 34:45

Yeah. So what I hear from your son's story is first like, it's kind of like, Hey, tell me what your dream is. And now let's, let's be a realistic unicorn here. Let's figure out how to get as close to that dream as possible. And if any, should anything happen, make sure you Have a Plan B, C, etc, etc. And so that's sort of what I got from hearing his story. Did I hear that? Right?

: 35:06

That's it. That's it. That's it. That's the whole model. That's how I work with every with every client. I have. Yeah.

Jen Amos: 35:12

I love that. And, and so I think that's great. And even though even though you started your business about a year ago, like you said, you have been in career counseling for a long time. So tell me what led you to start a business to begin with?

: 35:26

I, so I'll kind of take it back to the tax class, I would be very frustrated when I heard people say they didn't get anything out of the tax class. Yeah. And I would be like, Oh, that's because it wasn't delivered correctly. And so I when I was in college, which was not that long ago, the speaking up with Wendy Baird, Packard kind of came to me anyway, because I'm just a communication junkie, I just really thrive on understanding people and communicating and things like that. And so I've always had that in the back of my head, then when I wanted to tap, so I'm like, Oh, this is where I need to be. Because I could simplify the information. And I make it fun. Most people don't like to job search, most people are very intimidated by it. Most people are frightened. And most people have one set I, I have a resume, I send it out, I have a resume, I send it out. And it's usually not successful. And so I watched that happen over and over and over and over, and knew I did it better. I think that's when you're an entrepreneur, you just have to know it's not conceited, it's not boastful. You just have to know that you do your product better. And I know I do. Because it. So before I started the business, and this is kind of the answer to the question, it did it for free, a lot of people would be like, you really need to charge for this Wednesday, you really need to, really, you just spent like, 30 hours and I got the job I'm looking for and you build all these resumes, you really should charge for this. And then my husband started saying, you really should charge for this, I'm really good at this, you might want you know, like, oh, no, I just love donut. And I want to help. And it's really hard. And that's a whole thing. And entrepreneurship that, you know, getting comfortable with charging people is tough, because I do want to help but my business model for this business is right now I do have to charge people for my career counseling services, that's just the way it is. Eventually, my business model would be that I would do public speaking events, seminars, facilitate classes, where the budgets are bigger, where I could charge them without hurting the pocket as much, and then doing the career development, one on ones for free. That would be the goal. That's the career model two, that I'm striving for that. So I started the business because one I knew I did it better to I knew that I did it a lot for free. And three, I knew I wanted to do it full time. And anything you got to do full time, you've got to charge for it. And so that's where the business kind of was born out of. And it's taken some different turns, it's changed from, it used to be three tears. And now I've just taken it down to the to where I just do the pup everyday public speaking and career development. And I think as an entrepreneur, your business just changes as you go. Yeah, and everyone kept saying you should narrow it, you should narrow it, and I'm like, I'm gonna want to narrow it. And then it just felt very organic and natural that these are the two areas I wanted to focus on. And then I pulled the other one out, because they kind of I want to help build corporate culture veteran, so better employers with better corporate culture with through communication. But that kind of ties into the whole, just speak better to your staff met. So I kind of merged it all together. So that's why I started, I know I do it better. I see a lot of career counseling, that is surface level and generic. And that's ineffective. Just like if you stood in front of the taps class, and just gave information instead of digging deep into who's receiving the information. And that's important to me, that I really dig into my client to figure out what they really want, and what they're really looking for. And we really work through that. And I just know that a lot of career counseling is, here's a job, let's build a resume. And many times and people will say, Do you will you just build my resume? And I will not. Yeah, I will build resumes and show you how I did it and why I did it. And then we start building them together. And then you build up. I'm going to teach you how to do it on your own. And I know a lot of career counselors maybe aren't necessarily always doing that. Or there's a lot of great free services a ton, which I highly recommend. But sometimes they're not going to be able to give you that personalized experience where when you're like I don't want to do this anymore. I'm done and I'm like no, you're not called this go go go we got this you know so started it because I just Do I did it better? And my husband said you really should charge for it? Because you do it a lot. Yeah. Really, really as corny as it sounds, I want to help people have a better experience through their career development.

Jen Amos: 40:11

Yeah. Well, I love how, you know, all all signs pointed to you starting a business and charging for your time. And, you know, when you have everyone else telling you plus your husband, you're like, Yeah, I guess, okay, fine. And you do it

: 40:26

all the time, you know, you want to do it. So I can't not charge you know, so yeah.

Jen Amos: 40:30

And obviously, if you if you're very confident in what, in what like, and if you're very confident, in what you know, you're good at, you know, it, it only makes sense to charge for that time, you know, and to not just like, give it out for free. So I think that I think that's wonderful that you listen to everyone, you listen to the peer pressure, it's a good peer pressure, I think, you know, to have started to have, you know, go ahead and start your business. And, and, you know, I think that there's a book I really like called the E Myth. And it sounds E stands for entrepreneur. And the E Myth is, it pretty much debunks the way that most people typically romanticize entrepreneurship. But what I really Yeah, what I really like about it is it really talks about how entrepreneurship is actually a reflection of the individual, the business is a reflection of the individual, and more importantly, their their personal growth in building the business and growing the business. And part of that is evolving it, you know, you started off with like, three tiers, and now you're down to two. And that's why when we were talking offline, and you told me that you like, looked up my company, I was like, Oh, she did her research. And I hope it made sense. Because we're, you know, we're constantly like, every time I have my power hour sessions with my husband, it's always talking about, like, new messaging or better messaging, you know, so just to, just to be open to the evolution, like, like being open to allowing your business to grow, and to like, you know, fail forward, in a sense, you know, to just try out some messaging, see what works. And I know that I know, for you as a communications professional like, that makes, you know, I think that's it's very important to, you know, just try it with trial, you know, just throw some words out there and see what sticks and see what resonates with people. And everything. So, let's see, I think that is, you know, I do appreciate you sharing all that. And I know, part of like our, our conversation today, or when we say this differently. And so, so part of part of like our show holding on the four, we're very fortunate to have partnered up with the Rosie network. And so I'm curious what your experience has been like working or working with them being part of their cohort program, I imagine that added to add it to helping you build your business model.

: 42:42

Absolutely, it did. They are amazing. And it's such an incredible resource for service members, or spouses or things like that, that are thinking of being an entrepreneur, they are incredible. I, I went into it with no expectation actually just didn't really know it to be if I was honest, I'd say I thought I had a pretty good plan before I went in. Right, I'll take the information, you know, you always need to learn and grow. But I didn't expect. You know, as much as I got I it was phenomenal from the facilitator. She was amazing to the program is very extensive. It's going to touch on everything from business models, to marketing, to networking, to government, contracting, just you name it, and it just had some wonderful guests that volunteered. and wonderful. They partner you with entrepreneurs and other people that give you advice. And it was extensive. It was difficult. There was work involved, and thought I thought that was really cool as well. Yeah, when I was starting the business people used to say, I had, like I said, our time charging people, you know, you don't have a job or you want to leave your job and I need you to pay me money. I had a hard time with that. But what I've learned as a coach is you have to people have to have skin in the game for them to find it important. You know, when I'm not charging you, it's easy to blow me off or not to come to an appointment. When you've paid money. You're gonna make your appointments. Well, the Rosie network, I felt like really embedded that you have to be a hard worker if you're an entrepreneur. So you got to show up. Yeah, they didn't. There's no money involved. It's it's complimentary. But you graduate at the end, and if there's a graduation ceremony, and they promote your business, and so you want to make it to the end. Yeah. It's, I thought it was such a great program for that you had to it was six, eight weeks and you had to show up once a week and you had homework to do and you had to build this really hard pitch deck and they teach you to build that over a series of time and it was challenging and and again, I'm a Communications major recording is not that big deal, but took me two days to record two sessions of that, that pitch deck and I just said things over and over and just couldn't get it right and you that's such a cool experience. And then of course, networking, that's how we connected, you know, things like that. And they're still I still as an alumni, get opportunities to promote my business, or they just hit a golf tournament, if I wanted to sponsor the golf tournament, or things like that, they're still actively helping me get out there and get heard and get seen. So just a fantastic experience, and helped me turn my business in a direction that really pushed me to move to grow it. So I thought I was, but then I got in there, and they gave me the pitch deck, and they helped me with some marketing information. And I was like, oh, now I'm much more prepared to grow it and continue. I had Donald around for six months with a website was like, I can't do a website, I don't know, I can't do it, it's too hard.

Jen Amos: 45:53

I don't do it, I

: 45:53

do one family, you know, I don't do that. And I have a website now. And it's 99%, because of them, because they helped me set up the pitch deck, which helped me really conceptualize what the website would look like. And I was able to take on that and build the site. And so it's just 100% great experience and wonderful group of people, and such a great need, because entrepreneurship. And, you know, we started with a class of, I don't know, 15, I think we graduated eighth or something like that. So that if you talk about skin in the game, if you can't make it through that class, there's going to be very hard for you to stay on top of your business continually. You know, if you can't put the work in for there, then who the tough days as an entrepreneur are going to be really tough and you might not succeed. So it was really Yeah,

Jen Amos: 46:43

it sounds to me, that program really prepared you for the trials and tribulations of being an entrepreneur. And it's like, if you cannot go through this program, that maybe it it could be a reflection of how you would operate as an entrepreneur, if you even operate for that long. So I think that's amazing how the Rosen network is able to provide like such a meticulous program and really prepare you for the realities of what it means to run a business. And so, so yeah, that's, that's a really wonderful stuff. I've been kind of mentioning to my husband lately, because he went to the cohort program, like years ago, like, I think it was, like, way back in 2016, I think when they probably first started it. And I was telling him the other day, I was like I said, Hey, you know, how could it be? Like, I went through it now, you know, with our businesses where it's at today. Anyway, I need to figure out when I'd want to commit to that I'm kind of putting it out in the in putting it out there in the world that maybe I'll try for spring, but I'm just like, You know what, like I keep I'm obviously asking everyone on the show what their experience is like with the rose network that and I haven't personally gone through it myself. But you know, it's like maybe it maybe it's time, maybe it's time to get an update, but I'm just really happy to hear that. It was like a really great experience for you.

: 47:56

It's phenomenal. I loved it. I'd recommend it. Highly. You got to do it.

Jen Amos: 48:00

Yeah. Okay. All right. Yes, ma'am. Well, Wendy, let's go ahead. And you know, as we start to come, oh, by the way, are you good for like another five to 10 minutes. I want to make sure that I respect your time.

Unknown Speaker: 48:12

Okay. Cool. Totally fine. Yeah.

Jen Amos: 48:14

Whatever you need to cool. Okay, cool. All right. So, you know, as we start to come to a close here, Wendy, I want to let's go ahead and talk about like what life looks like for you today. And the key themes of our of the season of Season Seven is about financial stability and self sufficiency. And I'm curious if I'm curious, like what what either of those words look like for you today, financial stability for your business, and self sufficiency as an entrepreneur, so you can answer that any way you'd like.

: 48:44

Yeah, those are good ones, financial stability as an entrepreneur. As much as I want to do this full time, it's impossible to do that. So I have, as we mentioned, a son in college, I am in college as well. And so there's just not a way at this point, that I can keep my business as my sole income. So I, we joke about it, have a side hustle, you know, so I have a part time job that helps with that financial stability. For us. We're building for retirement. We're trying to plan we're trying to pay debt. So we have savings, we're trying to invest. You know, there's a lot of things to do. So this is not the time for me. And I hear a lot of people with entrepreneurship go you know, you just gotta jump in. And I spent my last dollar on it, and I just and great that works for them. That doesn't give me the financial stability that I think we need for our future. So I choose currently to have a second job, which you know, there's a lot of really cool really big name people who did that. So yeah, the gal who runs who ran Spanx. She just sold it for like a billion dollars or whatever but wow, she she created Spanx in her basement, I want to say and for two years, kept her day job and built that brand. And then it just bloomed. So, for me that financial stability requires me to keep that source of income coming in, while I continue to build my brand and build my business, so that is kind of what that looks like self sufficiency. That's a good one, um, you know, being self sufficient. So I've been married for 22 years. So whenever I say self sufficient, I always it's me and my husband. So yeah, I know that there's probably younger folks that are listening, that maybe they're married, and they keep their money all separate. And they that's fine. Whatever works for them. For us, it's all in one pot for us. And so self sufficient, is that we are able to pay for what we need, and have some for what we want, and don't have to buy or, or have credit or more debt to get it. So that's kind of and we are taking care of, you know, we have food eat, we have a roof over our head, all that good stuff. But if there's an emergency, we can handle it without a lot of stress or burden on our bank account. So we that selves, I guess for me self sufficiency is that we have a safety net. So whatever kind of comes at us, we have a big car repair bill, or we at one point, we own two properties. And if there was a repair bill on those, you know, did we have the money to do that, that we didn't have to be reliant on credit or debt? Yeah, of that. So yeah, I think that's kind of that.

Jen Amos: 51:49

I love I love those answers. I feel like, I feel like these two words. And actually, these two words are taken straight from the rosy networks mission statement. So and it happens to align with Arc my company us about well, so I'm always curious to know, people's interpretation of it. And I think again, you know, we kind of mentioned this quite frequently that people, people tend to romanticize entrepreneurship. And, you know, we think like, Oh, you got to jump all the way in. And, honestly, I want to see what that kind of person looks like, like, Are they single? Are they you know, do they have like inheritance?

: 52:21

If you're brave enough to do it, I'm assuming have that financial risk ability? Yeah.

Jen Amos: 52:25

Yeah. It's like, Who are these people, it's kind of I feel like these are like, the same people that are like the same types of people who would go on like a, like, a quick 30 Day Diet thing, or something like these people are, like, looking for the get rich quick things. And right, but also like that, the thing is, those things don't even exist to get the get rich, quick, doesn't even exist. Like, you know, they often say like, an overnight success took like, 1020 30 years, you know, right. So and, and I think like, it is important to recognize even, you know, with the military, community and culture is that, you know, there is no overnight anything, everything is planned, you know, so I think that, you know, to share where you're at, and to share and to be, you know, to be that realistic unicorn, you are, and, you know, stating like, hey, like, I can't go all the way and I have a son, I have a husband, you know, like, we I mean, and I think the good thing is that I do like how you say that self sufficiency is like for you, it means to have a safety net. And I hope that, you know, our listeners will really, you know, feel really reassured that if they want to do a side hustle, or you know, if they are having troubles with their finances to recognize that you don't have to make a million dollars to be self sufficient or to be financially free. It's really it really just depends on what your needs are, you know, are your bills paid for? Do you have a roof over your head? Is your family getting fed? You know, like, do you feel like it like do you feel like if you were in emergency situation, that you could be able to take care of yourselves regardless. So I think it's great to hear, you know, where you're at, in regards to like, what financial stability and self sufficiency look like for you?

: 53:59

And I think that's probably and I didn't think of it until now. It's probably why I didn't launch until I did. Yeah, why I felt like volunteering, doing my job and volunteering. We just didn't, you know, my son wasn't in college. I just felt like there was too much at that point now. Yeah, I encourage people to try things don't you can't sit and wait until you're 90 to try things, obviously. But for me easing into it was and we talked about this the other day, I was just talking about how I work from my home office. And I really would like to have a brick and mortar office. And and but that's just not yet financially feasible. So to run out and get that and then hope the income comes in. That's just not practical for my business model. So

Jen Amos: 54:41

yeah, yeah, yeah, I think entrepreneurship can easily be synonymous with ego, like in a way where like, people want to be flashy. They want to show the lifestyle. They want to have that Instagram esque story of like, look at my life. Look how amazing it is. Look how flexible it is. And I'm just gonna say now that doesn't Not is not like true of entrepreneurship. Maybe for some influencers, like the only thing I think the people who benefit from that is if they're building like an influencer type of business where they have to be showy, they have to, like, pour out their heart and soul and be vulnerable online, because they're trying to get sponsors, you know, to align with the lifestyle they're trying to put out there. But if you're not a if you're not a social media influencer, which basically is the majority of the world, I know, there are other ways there are other ways to make a comfortable living or to be stable without you having to, you know, have social media suck the life out of you. I did say that, but that's my thought on that. Social media has its purpose. It's just sure some of us we use it, we don't use it. And we have different specific purposes for it. But anyway, I'll probably get that out. We'll see. But anyway, anyway. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

: 55:55

Don't think too, that people think entrepreneurship is that epitome of work life balance, like I'm gonna have more free time and I'm gonna be able to work life balance. And and I don't, I think in any startup, any new company, you don't you have more work than life. Sometimes as an entrepreneur, if you want to generate it, the income, you gotta hustle. And that makes that takes a lot of time. So I think that's something people have to think about too, in launching their businesses.

Jen Amos: 56:22

Yeah, like entrepreneur entrepreneurship has. Yeah, I think balance is also a myth. We can like toss that out of the window, because it's like, there are going to be different seasons in your life where like you said, it's like, Hey, I cannot launch my business right now. Because my son is not in college yet. You know, like, just allowing yourself to, like, pace yourself, depending on what life has in front of you right now. Like, it's completely valid, like, not everyone is going to run their businesses 100%. You know, not everyone has the time or the resources, or response or like lack of responsibilities to do that. Like I again, I'm trying to picture like, Who is this person that goes all the way in? Yeah, no. Yeah.

: 57:03

Sorry to interrupt. Sorry, sorry. The key there is if you can't launch it, as a business, continue to build so you can. So that whole time that I wasn't launching as a career development coach, I was still doing it as a volunteer. I was still gaining the experience. I was still building the business model. I was still picturing what it was going to look like, I was still working on my logo, you can do all of that. Yeah. While you wait.

Jen Amos: 57:28

Exactly. There's, I'm gonna butcher this phrase, but it goes something like, even a seed in the ground in the ground is growing. So like, just because you don't see the seed have blossomed yet or blossomed yet. It is still growing. And I think that, you know, it's okay to be that entrepreneur that is still a seed in the ground. You know, the ground is great. There's a lot of nutrients, you know, like it's feeding you like it's, you're growing roots, you're actually growing.

: 57:51

That's, you're growing. Yeah, you're building and you're growing for sure.

Jen Amos: 57:55

Yeah. Um, well, Wendy, I want to make sure that we cover everything you want to share. You know about what you do about speak up with Wendy Baird Packard, I wanted to make sure I say that, by the way. I'm gonna say that again. So my editor can clean that up. I want to make sure that you speaking up with Wendy Baird Packard, okay. So I want to make sure that you share everything you want to share about your story. And speaking up with Wendy Baird Packard, before we get going so any final? I don't know, like thoughts or parting words of wisdom you want to share? And then sidenote, I'll ask you if you have a question for me at the end. But yeah, do you have any, like parting things you want to share to our military community before we go?

: 58:38

Yeah, just that transitioning from the military, into civilian. You can think about it all you want, and you can imagine it, but it may just not look like what you think it is. And so having that, as we've talked about several times, multiple plans, and using there are 1000s of resources out there for military to look at all the aspects of what they need to do when they get out. And so you know, your company, lots of companies that are gonna help you there's lots of different aspects of transitioning out. And there's the financial, there's the social, there's the physical, there's all of these things that you have to take into consideration. And then you have to take that consideration in with your family as well. So you're not just transitioning, if you have a family, they're transitioning as well. So just having a thoughtful plan, and then being able to pivot from that and use your resources as much as possible if you didn't get anything out of the taps class. Okay, fine. Go to Hiring Our Heroes. Go to the USO, go to your career development counselor at your base, reach out to Rosie networks. There's just I think somewhere I don't quote me on this. I'm not 100% Sure, but there's something in the range of 40 1000 nonprofits that benefit military. So something's very huge out there. So just continue to keep reaching and asking and stay connected. Because it is a difficult transition, just the loss of the camaraderie. I couldn't tell you how many people would sit my class go, I can't wait to get out of the military, but just I'm living it with my own spouse. I think that was his mindset, then when he got out was very different. That that kinship and that, so stay connected with military friends and family. And just plan, plan, plan, plan and reach out for help.

Jen Amos: 1:00:33

Wonderful. Well, I think that is, that's all amazing and windy, I want to commend you for starting your own business. And I wish you all the success and no rush in earning full time. But I do hope you I do hope that you eventually get there. And that is my will for you. And, and yeah, and I thought I'd ask just because usually when I get a step offline, guests usually have things ask me. So I thought I'd ask as a final question. Do you have any questions for me?

: 1:01:02

I do. I do. I think first of all, you're wonderful. And I love your company. And you are very great at what you do with this podcast and be really, really great. So just terrific, and just peaceful and lovable and just great. So

Jen Amos: 1:01:16

good to hear that.

: 1:01:19

Yeah, absolutely. Very easy to talk to. But so my question, this probably was not your life's work or thought or whatever, when you went into the podcast, and everybody deals with this. But how did you deal with that imposter? Or did you did you have impostor syndrome at all? Like, what am I doing? Who's gonna listen to me? How do I do this? What do you know? Yeah. How do you deal with setbacks now?

Jen Amos: 1:01:44

Yeah, absolutely. Wow, impostor syndrome. So I've been self employed for about 12 years now I started in my young adult years, when I kind of had no choice I was fired from for jobs in my young 20s. Even though I did get the bachelor's degree, like I did all the things that my family wanted me to do. But, you know, part of my background was being a military kid for the first 10 years of my life and, you know, moving quite frequently. And so it was actually quite strange to me if people stayed at a job for a long time. And that is why I got fired from four jobs because I, I didn't know at the time, but I realized I just I just that wasn't modeled for me, that wasn't my upbringing. And what I had found early on was, like, when I started to first hear about, like, sales and business, it was, it was kind of like hearing, it's kind of like describing feelings you didn't know you could describe, but it's like, Oh, that is so me, like, like, the more I started to learn about the lifestyle, you know, the more I decided to lean into it, and so I got into sales, like early on. And then eventually I got into running my own social media business. And then I worked with my husband, and we're still working together today still together, yay. So you can work with your spouse, y'all, it could really happen. And I will tell you that the majority of my 20s I definitely struggled with the imposter syndrome, I, I just always felt like a fraud. And mainly because I come from a family of farmers from the Philippines, my dad joined the Navy, and their aspirational goal, my parents aspirational goals that we find a successful nine to five career in the middle class, you know, they wanted to go up a class in a sense, and they and they all accomplished it all my family and friends, they accomplished it. So I mean, mainly my family and relatives. That's what I meant to say. And so when I got into sales, very much an imposter syndrome, mainly because I didn't have role models. I wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, I didn't have any role models is what I'm saying. And so and so. So it was very real, and I struggled with it a lot. And I gotta tell you that the way that I had overcome it, because today, I don't really like if I feel it, it just kind of sounds like a quiet voice in the very back of the room. You know, it's, it's really like, not there anymore. You know, we talked you were talking a little bit about your, your, your your faith, like my, my spiritual practice is incredibly important to me, I do believe in God, and I identify as a Christian and, you know, just just being able to be grounded in that be grounded in your faith and recognizing that you don't always have to know the answers, but you got to walk, you know, you gotta like go through the process. And it's, it's in hindsight, you can look back and be like, oh, you know, just like what you're talking about, what that whole 10 years and in the civilian world, you know, you get to look back and be like, Oh, that's why, you know, like, in your case, I God put me through that so that, you know, I can be more relatable as a career counselor. So I think that even with setbacks, I don't see it as setbacks. I see it as my husband actually says this really well. I see it he I see it as new information. So I've learned to take out in a way like fast forward to today like after going through the imposter syndrome and really like just being present and and you know, luckily having a husband who is is very logical. And being able to reframe things as like new information. That's, I'm a, yeah, I'm able to essentially like, kind of take the emotion out of it, even though I very much love what I do. But I'm able to, like, express my emotions where they should be, if that makes sense. Like, I know how to, like compartmentalize my feelings, and focus on like, what needs to be done, like, I've become more logical, and I'm able to be like, Okay, so this is new information. You know, this is this is what we have in front of us, oh, we seem to have lost a resource. Okay, well, what do we do with what's in front of us, and, and, you know, for me, I have, I have a mantra that goes, find purpose in the present joy in the journey, and blessings as you build. And for me, that constantly helps me recenter myself and keeps me away from destination addiction, which I think, you know, a lot of us tend to have, it's like, Oh, if only I'm there, if only I do this fully. And it's really just like, it's like, you know, what, I'm right where I need to be, you know, and maybe maybe the reason I'm where I need the reason, maybe the reason why I'm at where I'm at right now is because, you know, God is working through me, or God is preparing me for the next stage of my life, you know, and, and again, looking back, I think about all the things that led me to where I am today, and it's like, okay, that's why that's why he made me go through that Walker. That's why he made me go through that journey. So I would say that's the key thing. And in fact, I was just talking to someone about this, like, you know, they said, Oh, what's your parting piece of advice. And I said, like, honestly, like, if you're going to be an entrepreneur, I mean, this works for me. So I hope it works for other people. But if you're going to be an entrepreneur, you have to have a spiritual practice of sorts, like you have to have a level of faith because this is not a job. You know, this is not a job where someone is going to tell you what to do. You don't have someone to blame but yourself. And so you're stepping into faith every single day. So whatever that faith looks like for you, for me, it happens to be God. You know, Jesus Christ is my Savior. You know, and I gotta tell you, it's I'm not just, you know, believing in God just to work in my favor. But it's because I already have that spiritual foundation, that I can just look at setbacks as Oh, new information. Very interesting. Okay, what are we going to do with that? You know, so anyway, I hope that answers your question.

: 1:07:04

It did. It's lovely. That's awesome. It's very much. It's very cool. Because, like, like you said, Our faith is kind of God has a purpose for you. It's his purpose. And so what am I on the planet for? And when you find it, you know it, you know, and I think that's kind of what you found. And I found that so yeah, very cool. Very cool. Yeah.

Jen Amos: 1:07:22

Well, thanks for asking. And, you know, it's, uh, we're all we're all in this together, is trying to figure this out. And I mean, we'll know, we'll know. At the end of it. We'll know when we're dead. Like if at all supposed to happen. But until then, I'm gonna live my life and trust that there's a purpose for everything. So absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Wendy, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. I've really enjoyed our conversation today. And I hope our listeners got a lot out of this. And again, to our listeners, if you do want to learn more about Wendy will have her contact information in the show notes and even after, like, listen to the listen to the outro. For this, I'm gonna I'm gonna say this differently in the post edit. By the way, it's just my way for to kind of have closure here. We will have one nice contact information in the show notes and in the credits of this episode, when do things again, thanks again for joining us.

: 1:08:09

Thank you so much for having me. It has been wonderful. Just thank you. A blessing for me. Thank you.

Jen Amos: 1:08:16

My pleasure. All right, and everyone else. Thanks for listening, and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time. All right, and then give me one second. I gotta