137: "You are not alone if you have a child that requires a lot of medical or educational care. We got your back." Children with special needs with Michelle Norman

Jen Amos 0:00

All right. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your Creator and co host John Amos. And even though it always says it in the actual intro, I can't help but repeat it because it helps me warm up for a conversation. As always, I have my co host with me, Jenny lens droop Jennylyn Welcome back.

Unknown Speaker 0:15

Hey, happy to be here today.

Jen Amos 0:17

Yes, and we are extremely excited because I actually only had a chance to meet this incredible woman once at Mill spouse fest last year when she was giving the keynote speech. But I feel like I didn't talk to her enough. So this is why we brought her on. So we can have a conversation with Michelle Norman. So let me go ahead and introduce her. Michelle Norman is the founder and executive director of partners in Promise, Promise standing for protecting the rights of military children in special education. She has a navy spouse of over 25 years and a mother of a 17 year old daughter with cerebral palsy. So without further ado, Michelle, welcome to hold down the fort.

Speaker 1 0:53

Thank you, Jen and Jenny Lynn. It is such a pleasure to be here with you guys and to talk all things, partners and promise EFMP Special Education mill spouses, that rock and so yes, I'm happy to be here.

Jen Amos 1:07

Yeah. And let's start with you just giving a quick snapshot of where you're at right now because we have some good offline conversation about it.

Speaker 1 1:14

ylord in DC at the C airspace: 2022

Jen Amos 3:18

ays. I know that you were the: 2020

Speaker 2 4:22

is, what doesn't Michelle do? We're not all in the studio together, because Michelle is sincere in space, rather than in Hampton Roads. You know, maybe one of these days, we'll all be in the podcast recording studio. Yeah.

Speaker 1 4:36

Yeah, that would probably that would be really great. And, you know, all of those awards are just honored, you know, to be able to have that ability to speak on behalf of them. Our military children that are exceptional, they have special needs. And so, you know, it's nice to be recognized. But you know, I think about it in the greater terms of just you know, all military spouses are doing fantastic. work. And so it just maybe I was working in area that needed a little bit more spotlight on it too. And I've been very fortunate to have that personal experience, to be able to storytel a little bit, I just have to do a shout out to my team, who are fantastic military spouses all have children with special needs, and there's no way we would be where we are today without their hard work and dedication. Researching and you know, putting out fantastic products. There's no way one person could ever do this alone and so thankful to be part of an amazing, you know, military spouse tribe. And I'm telling you, these these male spouses, I'll say they're both mama and papa bears, right? Because we have both and right, it is amazing what you can do when you are passionate, and you have those strong why's and, and we definitely have that in our organization.

Jen Amos 5:52

Yeah, and I just want to express how much I respect the fact that even though I was here, reading your awards, you took it as an opportunity to give a shout out to your tribe. And I love that I think that more people in America should do that. And not always take 100% credit for what's being done. Because it does take a village, it does take a team tribe, to be able to accomplish a lot of what partners in promise has been able to accomplish so far.

Speaker 1 6:15

Absolutely. And I would also be remiss if I didn't mention, you know, my own family and my fantastic spouse to who, you know, there are times where I have to say I'm out, you got the kids. Yeah, and I know that you had a long day, I'm sorry. That is deported spouse, you definitely would not be able to accomplish what you would like. So a shout out to my hubby for that. And also for these type of venues such as this podcast, this is how we get the word out. This is that outreach this so very important. I will say that recently, I was approached by a wonderful young Navy spouse who's doing great things. And she was telling me all these great resources that she has, and you know, being a little older. I don't know if I really want to say that. But yeah, it's been around while Susan sees it salty. And I'm listening to this. And you know, when she finished telling me all that, and I'm like, Well, this is fantastic. And I'm loving this because she's from a different generation. But I also said, you need to kind of do I need you to connect with people do some research, because guess what, there's this app that already does that. And there's this course that already does that, you know, why are we all reinventing the wheel. And I said here, here's the people you need to connect with. So you can partner because she is not seeing this as a young Navy spouse. And I think that we're missing opportunities to reach everybody. Maybe we're reaching only the generation that's on Facebook, well guess what she's on Tiktok and Instagram. And so we there's so many different venues when we need to utilize them all. And I also think about you know, our families who have children with disabilities, having those different venues, whether it be a blog, a podcast, website that's in different languages, that's easy on the eyes of people with disabilities also need to have access to it. So it's great to have all of these different ways to connect with our community. So that connection, those venues podcast, you know, I wish I had more time in the day really, to do all of the above. But you know, it's great to have those those varieties. So thanks for what you guys are doing. I love that you're you're bringing attention to these issues.

Jen Amos 8:22

Yeah, well, thank you for recognizing our work. And I agree that it's beautiful. How many different types of mediums and platforms are available to us today. It really allows so many people from different walks of life, to maybe talk about the same cause as if what we're talking about here with partners and promise. So it's all wonderful stuff. And I do appreciate you acknowledging our work.

Speaker 2 8:45

I love that Michelle hit on like having a tribe and lots of support. I know Jen, you met Michelle, when we were all male spouse fest together last fall. I have had the fortunate opportunity to run into Michelle a couple more times since then, either by total accident at a Christmas party or on purpose, you know, having her working with my Virginia Beach Cohen veterans network counterpart and having Michelle here in the clinic with us because a lot of the advocacy work Michelle does for EFMP families goes hand in hand with the mental health work that we do at the con veterans that work. We provide that caregiver support and so the Hampton Roads the Virginia Beach clinic has worked quite a bit with Michelle getting resources and information out to the FMP families in the area to let them know that like hey, we're a resource for you like we understand the heavy mental burden of caregiving for someone with special needs whether it be a child or you know, an adult family member or things like that. And so you know, I love hearing you guys banter I'm also happy to have Michelle on because I've gotten to do a lot of work with her since we DML spouse fest last fall.

Speaker 1 9:53

It's amazing. It's amazing how much we have connected even more and of course you're doing great things as the 20 22 And as was it, naval base Norfolk military spouse the year so you're gonna do fantastic things. It's next year, I'm super happy for you. And by the way, I don't know if your ears were burning a little bit, but I was at a retreat and with some other national military service organizations remember talking about mental health of our youth and what we can be doing and multiple times, I brought up the great work that you guys are doing, because it's so needed right now in this time of life for our children. And of course, you know, everyone talks about the waitlist, and I can't even imagine if we didn't have you guys there in the Hampton Roads area, what it would be like as far as that availability, so anyway, yeah, I would not have been able to speak to that without having these connections in place. And so that's really what it is. It's, you know, making sure we're reaching the right people, and being able to give these fantastic resources that are that are very needed for our children. Oh, absolutely.

: 10:59

Yeah, about that weightless, because I work for excellent mental health company. You know, I don't necessarily get to come here as a client. So, you know, I mean, I know here in Hampton Roads, like I have spent multiple hours on the phone, looking for services for my own kids and my own family. And it is it is quite a desert out there of resources and services right now. Yeah. With a waitlist, I mean, to the point that they're like, Hey, we have a TRICARE waitlist, but it's full. And you're like, Wait, how weightless full? I don't what's happening? It's such

: 11:39

a problem everywhere, not just in Hampton Roads. And I think what we're trying to do is, you know, what's the root of the problem? How can we, you know, eliminate those pain points to even get to the point where you need to have some intervention of some sort. And so it's a complicated problem. But hopefully, you know, you've got the right minds on it and willing to look at policy willing to figure out how to partner more with our civilian community. There's just so many other things to consider. But I'm just thrilled that you guys are there.

Jen Amos: 12:16

I want to go ahead. And now get into detail about the work you do in partners and promise, Michelle, and I'm just gonna read a little briefly from your website. And you have shared on your site that all children receiving special education are entitled to a free appropriate public education. However, the data shows that there are systematic problems with special education for military families across the US. And the trend is many school systems are not providing the required standards of education. So then comes partners and promise having been created in February 2020. Right before the pandemic started. So I want to hear that story. Michelle, tell us about, like, when you decided to do this, and I mean, here, you are still being the nonprofit you are today. I mean, something must have stuck.

: 13:00

Right. Well, and how many other nonprofits have come together during?

Jen Amos: 13:05

Yeah, absolutely. I? Well, I

: 13:09

will, I'll have to go back a little bit in history. So you know, a lot of it stemmed from the year that I was more active in the community because of the Navy spouse of the year. And, you know, I think we were able to elevate, you know that there are some challenges for our kiddos in education based on my daughter's story. And as you know, the word got around and people were learning, you know about what those educational hurdles were. I was fortunate enough to testify in March. Now, February 2020, right before COVID hit with the House Armed Services Committee, Military Personnel Subcommittee about the FMP program was able to share about our story, but also had some top level ideas and solutions. Me and three other military spouses had worked together the year before on really how can we solve this problem at a policy at a federal level? And we came up with the promise Act, which was like seven different initiatives for, you know, policy changes, or, or how to advise and educate in various areas, you know, what are the systemic issues, and how can we solve it. And we worked with, you know, a couple of different, you know, leaders, both in the state and federally. And so I was able to talk to about that with the, you know, the committee. Then we had a congressional briefing, I think a couple weeks after that, that really kind of deep dived into what we were seeing and what data we had at the time. And then COVID came, but I didn't realize the momentum that really was spurred from those two events, you know, for that EFMP hearing. There were so many Mills spouses that showed up that day, they had to open up an overflow room in that building. It was incredible. They were fired up. They were wanting to talk about the program and it It just was electric in that room, I think we stayed close the place down. You know, for like a couple hours more it was just people were coming up to me like, this is what we needed. Someone saw us someone heard our story, and was able to articulate it to those in leadership positions. But it wasn't complaining it was with solutions. And so that momentum kind of just spilled over. And there's a you know, our CEO and lead researcher Jen Barnhill, she reached out to me, she's an amazing military, Family Advocate, reporter, and journalist, and she reached out to me products, she was writing an article about my testimony. And I'll be honest, you know, I was, it was tiring, I was exhausted, my spouse was still overseas in Italy, you know, all these great things were happening, but I just was spent it, it really was a sport spouses and two had to step away. So it was just me and the other one, another co founder, that we're trying to pull it all together. And then all these requests are coming in, for us to advise and tell them more about the situation, I was really kind of spent. And so she, she wrote this great article. And about a month later, she called me back and said, Michelle, you're doing great things that I sent, you can use some help. And I like almost cried like, Yes, I do need some help, you know, it's not something easy to admit that I can't do all of this alone. And she's like, let me help you. And that was the start. Really a partner's and promise, even though formally, you know, a year later is approximately is when we became an official nonprofit. But without her it was then a team of two. And then the team had to grow to a team of three. And then you know, we have now have, you know, think about four, five or six, you know, volunteers that work very, very hard. And we would not be where we are without their just amazing hard work and dedication, because we did start off, you know, as all volunteer military spouses, and they all have kids with special needs. And so there are times where one has to step back, you know, because maybe like, for instance, I had to go to Cincinnati a couple times already with my daughter for medical care, it's in the Cincinnati Children's Hospital for her airway. And so when I stepped back, someone else stepped in, you know, there's pcse, we had one of our members had the PCs last year, so she had to step out. So, you know, it's great that we can do that. And we're hoping we can sustain, you know, eventually, as her name gets out there, and we get more sponsorships. But it really is that boots on the ground perspective, though, that that is very, it's valuable. Let's just say that there's not many other organizations that are kind of really in the thick of it, and can speak directly to it. And I think that's what families are, they just come to us, they're drawn to that step person who gets it, you know, and can be open about their problems and not be dismissed. And so that really is what we're focused on. So we're focused on like, basically three pillars, you know, elevating, educating and advising. So we really do strive to kind of elevate those voices of EFMP families, we saw that at the hearing, we knew it was important. And so that was kind of piece of it. So how do we tell these stories, and then, of course, through a variety of ways, through blogs, through webinars, you know, through our newsletter, we just have a lot of different ways, podcasts and podcasts as well. And then we educate. So we educate those parents, those their students, and then leaders about special education law. And then we connect them to resources. And I'll tell you special education law is very complex, it's the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act is not something that you can just whip through and go, Okay, I'm ready to practice that. This in the state of Virginia or in the state of Texas, it's, it really is difficult, and not everyone understands it. And so we're fortunate that you know, our board and co founder Grace Kim, is a special education attorney, she was my attorney when I was having some difficulties with my daughter. And then the rest of us are all certified and special education advocacy. And so they're really we do have that experience to help our families. And then last thing we do is we advise, we advise leaders, you know, with that goal of informed policy decisions to help remove those hurdles, so that our military families really can have their service member focused, you know, on their job in military readiness. And so, whenever we have these opportunities, you know, to talk to, for instance, last week, I was at the Virginia Military Advisory Council, and I was able to speak at keynote speak on that and, you know, talk directly to installation commanders. And since we've had this annual survey, we've been able to breathe, other leaders, you know, within EFMP, with with different services, be able to talk to, you know, folks that are in the White House or, you know, within military community and policy, there's just, that's how we educate them, you know, we did that we found what's going on and how can we, you know, elevate that information and then think of solutions. So, you know, the last thing I'm gonna touch on now When we go into the survey is that, and I said this last week, we know that serving in the military is often a family business, right? You've always heard that, you know, when someone serves, and then their child serves their child's child, it just it goes on and on. And I think it's really critical to make sure that all, you know, our military children are afforded that opportunity to serve. And that is done through an appropriate education. So we need to ensure that all our kids, you know, those with special needs, those without special needs, all of them are afforded a standard diploma, you know, an appropriate education no matter where they are, so they can have, you know, those same opportunities to serve. And so that's, that's, that's kind of what we see, you know, and not just serve, but then also to be, you know, those productive, this independent members of society that give back, you know, and contribute. You know, there's wonderful state programs and national programs, that many people with disabilities, you know, need and utilize, but if there's an opportunity to give them that education so that they can go into the workforce, you know, that's a win win for everybody.

Jen Amos: 21:08

Yeah, I mean, I'm just taking everything that you're sharing, Michelle, and I have to ask, because I know that your daughter is, has been a huge inspiration behind this. What has been her take on this whole experience?

: 21:21

Oh, that's a great question. You know, she was fortunate to come up with me to DC when I testified. And I made sure to ask her Is it okay, if I share your story, I think that's very important as they age, to make sure that they're okay with some of the details, because some of it is very, very personal, on the challenges, she has faced a lot of anxiety that she has had, that we're still dealing with it, you know, it's, I have a lot of great friends on Facebook, that they don't even see what we're dealing with, behind the scenes, you know, a lot of things that, you know, that she has to see specialists for, but I think she feels you know that this is important to be that voice for other kids that don't have a voice. And so she feels it's also somewhat of an honor to be able to share, you know, that story with others. And if you actually watch the video of the hearing, she was sitting behind me to the right. My mother in law was in town again, my husband was in Italy, for a year and a half. So he was not there. And we had another co founder that was there too. And so I knew she was back there. And you know, it's very, it's scary, you know, it's very, you're very nervous of these things. You don't know what to expect, it was a full house. And, you know, I was able to give my testimony. And then Austin Carrick who is the Executive Director for, you know, exceptional military family in the military EFM. And she told her story for the next five minutes, and it was so emotional. You can see on the video that Marissa was visibly shaken and crying when she was listening to Austin story. And I've had several acquaintances, friends, reach out to me afterwards, like, wow, you can tell that she feels it so much that this was not right. And she doesn't verbalize that a lot. But this has had such a huge impact in her life. And, again, I think she thinks, you know, if she can help one family, then she has done her job, you know, that this will have scars on her for the rest of her life, but you know, feels like it was worth it, to be able to help others. And so I just had to make that comment, because you can see in some of the pictures too, just like, you know, her face, it's her eyes are all watery. And I'm like, wow, we don't have an idea of really of how this is truly impacting our kids. But anyway, it's been a journey, I will say that, you know, we we realized the importance of that storytelling. But when we started talking about, you know, one of the questions we kept getting over and over, it's like, well, how many people are impacted? You know, or if you go to a certain office for, let's say, a different state, like how many my constituents does that really include? And so, as you keep hearing that over and over again, we're like, where is the data? And so we started to dig. And there's some amazing organizations out there like Blue Star families who does their annual military lifestyle survey, and they actually were starting to kind of look a little bit into EFMP. But it wasn't too and we loved it. And it gave us the idea that there are some issues. And so we decided we're going to just do the deep dive because no one else is deep diving. No one's asking those hard questions. And so that's when we decided let's let's up our game here on our annual survey, you know, because that's the first one I'll tell you. It was very grassroots.

: 24:51

We're looking at my Google Form and like tell us a lot of that leading questions very biased. It was all qualitative, but it really did give us that, you know, polls of like, are we crazy? Because sometimes people were looking at us like, No, I've heard things have been great at all the schools for these kiddos. And so we did start looking like the crazy, you know, activists, I guess you could say. And that's not at all what we were trying to do. And so then we started, you know, coming up with a survey that would give us, you know, very good statistically significant data. And that's where generally led led us in that realm. You know, we collaborated with UNC the first year, and then last year was with the Ohio State University. And I'm telling you, it was so eye opening, once you get the right research team in place, and the hard work that they've done in all of the lit reviews, and it's just using the right survey instruments, it's fan tastic. And that's not my background, you know, I'm more of the engineer, and you know, that I never took statistics. So this was a lot that I had to learn. And, you know, I'm sure that they're rolling their eyes every time I ask a question, but they've got it. So whenever there's something that's very specific, I refer them to the resource. But at least I can brief on the overall data, you know, and you know, that it's just again, it's including both a storytelling that qualitative piece, but then also having that quantitative piece, and people will stop and listen and go, Okay, now we're talking now I can act on those solutions. Because we know that these are the trends, these are the patterns, it's a systemic across the board. And we know that it's a general policy that needs to be changed. Or if it's in one region, then we know that we need to focus on XYZ and that one region, so it's, it's been fantastic. So we're thrilled, and we're hopeful to be able to continue that level, high quality serving every year. So we can kind of keep track, you know, what's working, what's not working? How can we make changes, and let's, let's make sure we see those benchmarks. And let's, let's see if we can look at this in a longitudinal way. So that we can one day not have to worry as much because all the right policies will be in place, and all the systems will be in place. And that's that's where we're hope to get one day.

Jen Amos: 27:15

Yeah, I'm just once again, taking everything in sharing the shell, and I'm like, What do I even ask next? I know, y'all are on it. You have yours, amazing spouse tribe, working together to not only storytel, but to have the data to back it up. And I am just absolutely impressed. And I imagine that for any parent that has a child with special needs, in education would really appreciate this conversation. And so all that being said, let's go ahead and just talk real briefly about the 2021 military Special Education survey findings, just so we can kind of, you know, create a little more awareness, and especially now that the data gets more significant, I think every year because the team that it takes you to the team that you have put together to make this possible. So I know that in the survey finding, you have three barriers that you mentioned, there's the real barriers, the perceived barriers, and the unknown barriers. Let's start with the real barriers. Michelle,

: 28:17

right. No, you're absolutely right, Jen. And those were the three key takeaways from the surveys of the barriers. So the real barrier that really pointed to what we've had been talking about qualitatively for years. And then we finally got the data, there are significant delays of our military children receiving special education after a PCS. And that's tough, because we know that transitions are difficult for all military kiddos. I see significant delays of those that have special needs. It's way more amplified, you know, exponentially. And that's a problem, because I DEA, the the federal act I talked about earlier, there's very specific timelines associated with parts of that process of, you know, identifying if there's an issue, you know, having evaluations completed. There's very specific timelines on when things need to be in place. And then there's some areas that are kind of like, well, as soon as possible, like some of the wording is, is not super specific. And then you have the states, the states each have to do the minimums, that sometimes some dates put in additional protections, which is great. And some of them interpret parts of like, well, it should be done in 60 days, well, that's 60 business days, is it 60 calendar days. So each state interprets things a little bit differently, but we have seen the pattern is systemic that all of the states showed delays in receiving those services after PCs. And I will just kind of give you a couple latest stats 77% of those who went without services after a move waited longer than 60 days, again, that 60 days is kind of like a boom, boom, boom. But the average delay that was experienced after move is 5.75 months. And that again, 5.7 months is a very long time, you know, that's nearly a quarter of a two year tour of duty, you know, a lot of our folks, they're out and about boom, sometimes even less than two years, if they're going to like maybe a war college or, you know, a particular class, it's only a year long. It's that's difficult. And then when you think about, you know, our younger kiddos, you know, and when you may 1 Suspect perhaps that there's a there's an issue, again, there's very specific timelines for Ida, but we have found with our military families are waiting 23 months, from like, an initial ID of an issue to then receiving services. And so that's frustrating, there's probably a PCS move somewhere in there, you know, likely like, Oh, I'm seeing something, they said, maybe to wait a little while, you know, maybe they're too young. And then okay, maybe we need to kind of evaluate and maybe it starts in one place. They're not finished, and then you move. And then the next school might say, well, you know, we haven't got to, you know, have a chance to meet Susie, let us have a couple of months and meet Susie. And then let's come back to the table and see if we really need to do some more evaluations, you know, so you can see how this gets drawn out. Right. But really, you're supposed to have that 60 day. So it's frustrating. I will say that, you know, there's definitely some top states that were had reported violations. And, you know, those are the ones we're probably going to try to focus on more than others. But the patterns in the data show it's systemic across the board. So what can we do, I think as far as, you know, an organization to help these families and knowing that this is a problem. And one thing that we are doing and really trying to amplify it and create an awareness program for is advanced enrollment. Now, if you guys have ever heard advanced enrollment 33 states right now are have legislation within their general assemblies that talk about advanced enrollment, I think maybe we'll be up to like maybe 40 or 44, by the end of this year. But so what advanced enrollment, it's let's say, you're in California, and you're moving to Texas. And you've got you actually have written orders with who, and so you can actually send those written orders. I know I laugh, right, because how many of us actually get written orders in a reasonable amount of time.

: 32:42

But it happens, it does happen. So let's say you have the written orders, and you have an IEP, we are saying to families, like hey, send that as soon as possible to one of those 33 states and get it in the hands of the right people, they can see that IEP, they can see the services and supports that child, you know, already have, and they can have it ready for day one, what a great win win, right? You know, something we hear often as a family that has a child with special needs, you get to that new school district, even though you sent it like months before the IEP, you'll get there and you'll meet the teachers. And they're like, I am so sorry, I have not seen the IEP yet. And so it takes and of course, now they want a meeting, and you're like, Oh, my goodness, I gave this to you four months ago. And so we're trying to figure out, you know, where are the barriers within that entire process? You know, why is it not getting into the hands it needs to get to and the other thing is no one knows about advance of Rome. And you know, we asked our families in our survey, do you even know it? And only 16% of our family said that they're aware of answer moment that they actually used it. But when we looked back at where they were actually based based on their current location. And then they were asked, we know were you ever told they were told they couldn't use advanced Rome and they said it was not an option. They lived in one of those 33 states, and you're like, Oh, my goodness. So the school districts maybe don't even know that they have advanced enrollment option. So we're just going to try to keep talking about this. Find out where those dates are, get that IEP in the hands as quickly as possible that we can try to shorten those timeline delays, you know, that really is where we're going with advanced Romans, like, how do we make it to where our kids can get their services on day one. So that that's probably the biggest thing for that. And just what what supports can we do? How can we make How can we speed up that process? Because there's a lot that happens in 5.75 months, I mean, there's loss instruction, there's regression and oh, by the way, because your child's not able to get correct transportation or the correct supports are probably not going to have some more mental health issues. Right. So it's just, you know, compounds it really does compound and it's harder to To get back to speed and oh, by the way, you're moving again. That's kind of like the whole cycle, and we need to break that cycle. So that's kind of the first thing. That's the real delays. And I know you talked about the perceived barrier of lack of recourse, you know, when a problem happens, you know, our families are not elevating it. So I guess you could say, the good news is that we found our families only 20% Ever had filed a complaint. And we asked, you know, complaint could be just writing an email to the teacher, like something's not going right, you know, or maybe writing the superintendent or the principal, or maybe going to a school board meeting and having a couple of minutes and talking to so that's like informal. But there's also formal ways to elevate a problem. And that's really the only ones I talk about in the federal law, you know, you have to kind of file a state complaint. It's a written, signed complaint. Or you can file for due processes or like the formulates so we asked our families, what do you do, you know, if you have had a problem, and only 20% said that they they did anything, and most of them were informal, most of them, like we're very casual and formal. But we asked, you know, well, if he didn't, you know, is a reason why. And we found that over 70% of our families said, Yeah, we could have filed a complaint, but it wasn't worth the time. Yeah, I knew that wasn't gonna matter. And that's a problem, because that is really the only recourse according to this federal law, to try to reconcile anything. And so when you feel like it's not gonna matter, I'm gonna move eventually, it's too much stress, it's too expensive to figure out? How do we help those families, be able to kind of revisit and try to make sure that there are no barriers for them to be able to elevate it to the next level. So that really was the biggest thing on perceived lack of recourse there are systems in place, it's just, they think it's not going to help.

: 37:03

And the last one was the unknown barrier. That really is the relationship between access to information. Yeah, its relationship to positive education outcomes. So basically, the less access, you have to the correct information, you're going to have more negative education outcomes. And so when I think about that, it's more like, well, let's say you didn't know about EFMP, and you didn't know about special ed resources, chances are you're not receiving special ed in that new place, chances are, you're probably spending some money out in town for supplemental services. And we also found that a lot of them were not in the least restrictive environment, compared to their civilian peers. And so that's a problem is like, we need to figure out how to let these families know how do we educate them about these supports that are out there? How do we let them know about these new special education tourney's? You know, they're on each installation that we advocated for 76% of them didn't even know that was even an option. And that was mandated in the 2021, NDAA? How do we let them know that? How do we let them know about the MC three that's available for all military families to help them they move from state to state, or the advanced enrollment, right, all these wonderful benefits, but they just don't know. And so we have to work on educating advising them, but also our leaders so that they can tell them and figure out what their messaging is because you kind of forget who your audience is just like you guys have this podcast, you know, are people going to websites to get their information, I love Military OneSource don't get me wrong. But these aren't people, they may not be a Military OneSource they may want to just again, be on you know, Facebook or Tik Tok. So, we really need to reframe how we're getting messages out. And, you know, is it you know, the first line of the school liaison officer and the EFMP coordinator, maybe they need to be contacting them are often when they're a new family who's come to the area. So there's a lot of things we need to keep digging down. And those are some of our recommendations. And just to keep this dialogue going, how can we help them be able to help their families, you know, we are here as a resource, but we're also asking the hard questions and, and hopefully looking, you know, from again, the top level down, yeah, it's a big year, a great year, lots of data. And we are very excited about the next one. We're already starting our planning process when that's gonna launch. Yeah, it launches in September, we usually wait for people to get into the school, maybe settle down for a few weeks and then we start asking the questions because that's when a lot of change happens you know, those first 30 to 60 days and so we try to keep our annual survey from September to October and then hopefully get the the initial results by the end of December and then start briefing it out in January. So that's kind of our mode as of late and it's been great. We've we've seen a lot of people who they just really care about our families. And so they just weren't really sure how to help them. And so lots of great partners, lots of great allies, we can use more, just to kind of get the word out of who we are and how we can help these families, get them in, just to kind of put them on the right map roadmap. And that's kind of that's kind of what we're doing. And just letting them know, they're not alone. They have a tribe. And so sometimes that's they need to hear that. It can be a very lonely world, having a child that requires a lot of medical care, or educational care. And sometimes in this military world, people are afraid to speak up, they have that stigma of that life is not the All American, everything is great at home, you know, and it can be very isolating, you know, there's times where I remember, I couldn't go to a squadron event. Because of my daughter, I couldn't leave her with anyone. She's just it was very unique. We didn't have respite care at the time, I tell you what those respite care programs are amazing. And we would not be where we are today in this Navy career without it. So again, it's just, it's different. It's a different journey. And it's one I would never change. But, you know, these families eat to know that there's people who understand they care, they're working hard on their behalf, and that we got their back. Yeah,

Jen Amos: 41:20

it just gets me to think about like, when I was a military kid, it was already difficult enough, being fully abled to, like, find my footing. And even in my adult life, I still feel like my mind says like, okay, is something going to shift in my life every two to three years, or every five to six years. And that's still something I struggle with today. And so I can only imagine how much difficult it could be for children with special needs. And so, Michelle, I think, the work that you and your team, because gotta acknowledge the tribe, doing incredible, incredible work. And I like that specific goal of the timeline. And, you know, as we close here, because I know, I know, we all have to jump on to something else in about a minute, let us know, what is a recent win, let's wrap up with that, what is a recent win that you just feel so compelled to sharing, to end our conversation with some hope?

: 42:11

gasa it's really great. I think, for us, the acknowledgement of needing those special education attorneys was a very big win for us. And so ensuring that that program is implemented correctly, is what we're continuing to do. And knowing that the EFMP program is supposed to be should be standardized, or those are great wins for our families, because it again, acknowledges that there's problems and it's run differently by service branch. And so the fact that we were able to get those attorneys, it just validates their stories, that this is a difficult world to navigate, and that we do need that support, you know, we cannot, this is such a federal law that's really parent enforced, it really puts that parent in that position to have to speak up. And so when you have someone you can go to, you know, that kind of can share that burden with you. Yeah, that's huge. It's really huge. You know, I think just having someone go to a meeting with you sometimes, which was another huge win for us, it's just someone who can sit there, and they don't have to say anything, but just, you know, when you have 17 people around the room, and you just you, you know, and if you have any questions or, you know, again, our military, you know, I think community has we respect authority, it's very difficult to speak up, sometimes we're just anyone in authority is telling us something like, Okay, that sounds great. You know, that's just the way this this life is for us. And so it is hard when you have, you know, maybe a different opinion about something. So having someone from the EFMP program, or even the attorneys be able to sit in that meeting, and just know that they have your back is a great thing, because again, it's all about that connection in that tribe. And that we're in this together, you know, to make sure that these kiddos will get that diploma if they can, and you know, just be a really valuable part of our community.

: 44:00

Michelle, I just think it's great, what you and your team are doing to reduce stigma around this, bringing all of that information to light and continuing to dig. I think that the subsequent years that you do this will continue to reduce the stigma for the EFMP families. And for those of us who who, like you said want to support EF f NP families. I mean, I have been on the teaching side of those IEPs. And right, it is an incredibly difficult position for everyone in the room when you know somebody needs the support. And either you didn't get it in time or you know, I mean, there's so many layers to that and the fact that you guys are like digging through those and then taking them to the people who can make those organizational changes. I just, I am grateful for you and I want it to be noted on the show that though Michelle is a navy spouse like myself and things do differ across services and they are working across services, service branches, Just let me make it clear across service branches to, you know, get everybody the help they need like this is not singular to one service branch.

: 45:10

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, but I will say, go Navy. They lived away with the pilot programs for those EFMP attorneys. I'm in Hampton Roads of San Diego. And I will say the Marine Corps already had started that, in fact, the Marine Corps hiring their third attorney in Quantico, starting in June. And so, you know, that's that I love seeing our sea services kind of going forward with with the great things, and honestly, with the Coast Guard, their mutual aid society also offered grants for families during COVID. And now to help them get an advocate, you know, or help them get an attorney, because they were seeing a lot of issues that spurred from COVID Cuz we haven't touched COVID. But right, that was a nightmare for so many of our families. So I will just say that, you know, the C services are rocking it. And so is the Air Force have amazing amazing allies over there and great Facebook pages in the central fell. So and even the Army's you know, go on track with their Jags a lot of good things, we just need to standardize it. And it's thrilling. And seeing those senior leaders, you know, hopping on board, and seeing the value of this is just, you know, that's what we always needed, you know, just having that year of those who can make a difference. So, thank you, Jenny. Lynn, always great working with you keep working on that stigma thing together. Okay, absolutely.

: 46:32

chase down the right people at the right parties we're at. Right? That's right.

: 46:37

We'll get to here next year. I'll get you in front of a couple of people as well. It's great. It's very

Jen Amos: 46:45

well, I know Michelle Norman, in order for people to learn more about partners and promise, they can check out the promise act.org Any other resources that you want to share before we go?

: 46:54

Well, it is the month of the military child, we are putting all sorts of things out through our newsletter and our Facebook page, I would say you know, follow us on Facebook and LinkedIn, Instagram, and you will see all of our tips and tricks throughout the month, you know, a lot, some of them are geared towards PCs thing, which is, you know, very close to that time of year, we have to start doing your research and getting your IEP binder together, we have videos on that, how to prepare for those last IEP meetings, so that you can set yourself up for success at the next duty station. And again, that advanced enrollments I say follow us because every single day, we are sharing some type of action or resource for these families. And on our website, as well. There's a toolkit that people can download as well. So we're here for you reach out if we can help anybody point them in the right direction. Or if they want to share their story and see areas that we might be able to help with. We're happy to do that.

Jen Amos: 47:50

Well Michelle, it's been an absolute pleasure having you thank you so much for joining us today. And we hope that our listeners got a lot out of today. Of course, if you want to get a hold of her and learn more about the organization, you can check it out in the show notes. So thank you all so much for listening, and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Till next time